- Alan Petrillo Now we'll see how much hate mail this gets me.
- Robert Luis Rabello I don't know, Alan. There's nothing you've written here that raises my hackles in the slightest.
- Eliska Reilman Adema I understand the point you're trying to make. But " These rights did not spring fully formed from the ether. People died to win us these rights." In fact, rights do spring fully formed from the ethers. It's why they're called inalienable. People have died to enforce the inalienability. I can make a better case for the no-fly list being against inalienable rights than gun possession. After the last few years of mass killings, I've had to do some hard thinking about this 'right to bear arms' . I've defended the 2nd amendment, explained the context of militia as a body of soldiers not controlled by the government. ( why I believe the 2nd amendment exists) Are we not in greater danger from the non-government people around us every day than we are in danger from the government? Slowly but surely, the government has taken away many of our constitutional rights and at this point we have to ask - could anyone in today's society form an militia capable of overthrowing this abusive government?
- Alan Petrillo The argument could be made that what we consider "inalienable rights" actually sprang from Enlightenment era philosophy.
- Alan Petrillo The no-fly list and the terrorism watchlist were precisely what I had in mind. They trample all over the Bill of Rights. The legislation that would make use of them for other means, without recourse to due process of law, doubly so.
- Alan Petrillo Keep in mind, I'm in favor of preventing people on the terrorism watchlist from buying firearms, but I also want their rights to due process of law respected in the process.
- Eliska Reilman Adema Yes, when I studied ethics, I was flabbergasted to learn points of view where 'the common good' was given much more weight than an individual's rights. There were even exercises that took a situation, such as someone who wanted to make the decision to …See More
huffingtonpost.com7 Ways That You (Yes, You) Could End Up On A Terrorist Watch List7 Ways That You (Yes, You) Could End Up On A Terrorist Watch List- Alan Petrillo That must have been an interesting exercise. My own Ethics classes were not nearly so interesting.
- Eliska Reilman Adema Were you living here or following the prosecution and total miscarriage of justice that was the Sami Al-Arian case? So many people were thrilled at how he was treated. But he is us. And we are all the enemy now with things like Patriot Act, National Security Letters, etc.
- Eliska Reilman Adema I wish I could remember what that decision making process was called, Alan. I ended up using it to write my final paper. The issue I was given was medical tourism. The circumstances I was given involved an exotic dancer who wanted to have plastic surge…See More
- Eliska Reilman Adema Oh, I found it - it's called the Utilitarian approach. The values are assigned on a -10 to +10 scale of pain/happiness. https://www.brown.edu/.../framework-making-ethical-decisions
- brown.eduA Framework for Making Ethical Decisions | Science and Technology StudiesA Framework for Making Ethical Decisions | Science and Technology Studies
- Alan Petrillo I was outraged at the treatment of Sami Al-Arian. If he wasn't a radical before then he is now!
- Eliska Reilman Adema All that said, I'm opposed to using the No Fly list because it's fraught with errors. It's existence in unconstitutional. I'm getting a headache :p This is why I stayed off FB for the most part this last week and wallowed in my garden. Now Congress is erupting - Ryan threatening to arrest his co-workers. I need a drink. Gonna go fix a super size Cafe Au Lait with Mexicola chaser.
- Alan Petrillo Wallowing in the garden is always in order.
- Jay Ashworth He. Threatened. To. Arrest. Them.
Has Paul Ryan never read the fucking Constitution? - Eliska Reilman Adema AlArian probably was using the charity to funnel money to terrorist organizations. But in spite of his attorneys not being allowed discovery because it threatened national security, the government couldn't get a conviction. And he still went to prison
- Eliska Reilman Adema i can't take this. I'm going to go play Facebook Cross Stich game. The country is freaking crazy - good night everyone. it's been wonderful to have a civil discussion
- Alan Petrillo I can relate. I'm going to go watch Michael Portillo ride trains around Britain.
- Jay Ashworth Correct. "To protect these rights", not to "win" them. Since they were not given to us by anyone, they cannot be taken away from us by anyone.
- Jay Ashworth Eliska: yes.
- William Bishop Alan, do you support any additional regulations or restrictions for gun purchases?
- Eliska Reilman Adema You mean because the ones we have are working so well? I think it's time to pass legislation to restrict jobs
- William Bishop I find it interesting that I can't get an answer from Alan.
- Eliska Reilman Adema He might be busy. Some people have a life :D
- William Bishop That's why he's been posting on Facebook all day.
- William Bishop Some people just would rather run away. #runawayryan
- Eliska Reilman Adema Sometimes we need a break. Sure won't encourage a response to taunt a person.
- William Bishop We? Do you speak for Alan now?
- Eliska Reilman Adema Taunt taunt taunt. Got anything useful?
- William Bishop Sure. Whether you like it or not, gun control legislation is coming. The Dems are committed to changes that over 80% of the country agrees with. Not only will Hillary trounce Trump, but there is a likelihood that the Dems will retake the Senate and pick up seats in the House.
- William Bishop Do you have anything useful?
- Eliska Reilman Adema Lots. For your information, Alan and I had a long, thoughtful conversation last night, disagreeing in some areas, exchanging insights. - about difficult topics.It was exhausting. In the end, WE both agreed that sometimes we just needed to avoid argume…See More
- William Bishop Thank God! Because you're simply a childish hypocrite.
I don't recall insulting you, Donald wanna be, but you seem to have no qualms lowering yourself to that immature level. Go bully someone else, Eli, you missed the target on this one. - William Bishop Not useful, btw. And added nothing to the conversation at hand.
- Alan Petrillo Will Bo : That prediction didn't work out so well, did it.
- Alan Petrillo Will, to answer your other question, I would support the addition of bump-stocks and all rapid-fire devices like them, to the list of Class 3 devices.
I stand by everything I wrote in this essay. Got anything else? - Alan Petrillo As a further answer to this question, I would not oppose raising the purchase age of all firearms to 21, as that seems to have become the new age of majority in our society. I would also not oppose a permitting process for assault style rifles, something like a light version of a Class 3 permit, if, and only if, the permits were issued quickly, at low cost, and on a shall issue basis.
I still stand by everything I wrote in this essay. - John Robarts The article doesn't mention the deaths from the wars of the reformation which were a directly diving force behind the minds of the founding fathers and their views on our rights.
- John Robarts What we need are waiting periods and background checks for school admissions
When those of us who are on the center-left protest gun control laws that violate the enumerated rights to due process of law we are continually faced with one particular saying from gun control advocates: “Your rights do not justify one single death.”
This statement is nonsensical for a number of reasons. First, rights never justify deaths, but more the other way around, deaths justify rights. Second, these aren’t just my rights, these are our rights, for all Americans, Left, Right, and Center. Third, intentionally violating these rights in the furtherance of the agenda of the Left uses exactly the same reasoning as those who would violate these rights in the furtherance of the agenda of the Right.
Deaths are not justified by rights. That is simply not the way a civilized society works, except possibly in the minds of the rightest of right wingnuts. Rights may, however, be justified by deaths. The rights we have under the United States Constitution, informed by the rest of our foundational documents, were justified by deaths. The deaths of Continentals in the Revolutionary War, to throw off the yoke of British Colonialism. The Deaths of Federals in the War of 1812 to prevent that yoke from once again closing around America’s collective neck. The deaths of Federals and Confederates in the Civil War. The deaths of these men and women could not justify the rights enshrined in the Constitution more if the foundational documents themselves were written in their blood. No, deaths are not justified by rights, but rights may be justified by deaths. These rights did not spring fully formed from the ether. People died to win us these rights. The very least we can do to honor that sacrifice is protect the rights of due process for all Americans, including, or perhaps especially, those with whom we disagree.
The rights to due process of law are not my rights. They are our rights. They are not simply individual rights, they are collective rights that protect all Americans. We cannot pick and choose when, where, and to whom these rights apply. They either apply to all of us all of the time or they apply to none of us any of the time. If rights can be abrogated at will then they aren’t rights, but merely suggestions. These rights, especially the enumerated rights in the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments in the Bill of Rights, as well as the 13th and 14th Amendments, and many others, guarantee due process of law to all Americans. Any legislation which abrogates these rights should be swiftly and decisively voted down. Don’t enact it and promise to fix it later, fix it first, before putting it to a vote at all. The rights to due process of law are first and foremost what makes The United States Of America the America we claim to love, and these rights must be protected for all Americans, Right, Left, and Center.
Passing legislation that violates due process for the furtherance of a particular cause sets a very bad precedent. Laws that do violate due process will sooner or later wind up in front of the Supreme Court, but a lot of people will get hurt in the process, and will be imprisoned, impoverished, or both. But more than this, the reasons one side uses for the furtherance of their agenda may also turn up being used by another side for the furtherance of a different agenda. The statement mentioned in the beginning of this essay is a prime example. Among the Left, the gun control lobby states “your rights do not justify one single death.” This is exactly the reasoning put forward by those among the Pro-Life lobby of the Right who would deny women the right to terminate unwanted pregnancies, and deny them access to birth control. If those of us on the Left set the example then we may expect it to be used against us in the future.
One should be very careful when proposing legislation that infringes or denies rights to due process. We owe this careful consideration to all of those who died to win us these rights. If we do not carefully consider the infringement of these rights then we will see that infringement used against us. The rights you infringe may very well be your own. These rights to due process are liberal ideals, and it’s about time those of us who call ourselves liberals acted like it.
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